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I would think that given that the disc is not coming your way, you're only blocking a person's cut. That might raise the question of a defensive foul? But I'm not certain.
I'd hope that, in any case, such a defender should expect a reasonable amount of contact in that role... and that the contact isn't too rough. |
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| Krissi Baxter wrote: | Because this comes up every once in a while, and I've heard mixed reviews regarding this, is it a foul when an offensive player is "crashing the cup" and comes into contact with the arms of the players in the cup?
For example, 3 person cup (including the mark), two defenders in the cup with their arms extended. Offensive player runs through the cup towards the disc, hits the defender's arm, which he/she has kept extended, in an effort to block a disc which might travel their way.
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If the defenders in the cup already have their arms extended, the situation you are describing would be a foul on the "crasher" because they are instigating contact with the arm of an opponent.
What sometimes happens (and causes confusion), is that someone on defense yells "crashing" and the members of the cup jump or raise their arms to block the movement of the crasher. This is often going to be a foul on the defender.
The three relevant rules:
Contact resulting from adjacent opposing players simultaneously vying for the same unoccupied position, is not in itself a foul.
A player may not take a position that is unavoidable by a moving opponent when time, distance, and line of sight are considered . Non-incidental contact resulting from taking such a position is a foul on the blocking player.
Each player is entitled to occupy any position on the field not occupied by an opposing player, unless specifically overridden elsewhere, provided that no personal contact is caused in taking such a position. |
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The three rules posted all refer to a "position" on the field. As most rules that discuss position also appear to discuss space in relation to a plot of land (occupying, taking off, landing, etc) or the vertical space above it, where in the 11th Edition do they actually discuss extremities as they relate to "position"?
Specifically, are you permitted to occupy horizontal space, and force others to run around you? If that were the case, would it not be possible to have your wall all touching finger tips so "crashing" would be impossible?
I would think there is no difference between whether the disc is in the air or not as it relates to this issue (specifically talking about the blocking rules)...at least not if there is a difference between body and extremities.
Bill...set me straight
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| The rules are really geared toward person on person defense. With zone defense being played more often, even at higher levels and not just in DUC, the rules need to be updated! Where is the 12 edition? Bill are you working on the 12 edition? |
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This came up in conversation at the end of summer playoffs. Chris Beatty asked the question. It was looked at int the rules by Bill, Geoff, Myself and Dana.
I am doing this from memory but here is a summary of how the conversation went:
If you are stationary and have extended arms, and someone runs into you, it is technically a foul because you have occupied that space (including the extra space allowed by extended arms) and the person collided with you.
If you are moving or extending your arms while people are running near you, (which is more often the fact when playing defense), it becomes incidental contact because you are both moving into unoccupied space.
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I have come to the conclusion that there are no rules that explicitly address this situation.
I see Rick has stated "it is technically a foul because you have occupied that space (including the extra space allowed by extended arms)", but the only reference in the 11th edition that I see regarding arms and legs is as follows:
Any contact initiated by a thrower with the body (excluding arms and legs extended from the midline of the body) of a legally positioned (XIV.B.3) marker is a foul on the thrower. XVI.H.3.a.4
This rule obviously does not apply in the situation we are discussing, as it relates to a thrower hitting a marker. But if we are to extrapolate from the Rules only mention of arms and legs, it would imply that they are not considered part of the body, and hence all the rules previously mentioned in this thread would also not apply as then positioning would be about the body not the extremities.
Further it seems that only if the contact impacts "continued play" does it constitute a foul (definition of Foul and Incidental contact). Which an offender running through arms of a wall is unlikely to do if the disc is still in the hands of the handler.
At best it almost appears this play can only be called one way or another if the disc is in the air, or maybe a Dangerous play if it is violent contact.
Way to confuse us all Krissi  |
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