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It appears that this past weekend there was some confusion into timeouts in the last five minutes of games and the consequence of calling them. So I thought I would start a discussion to clarify what I now understand is the rule per 11th Edition.
XII.D - The following actions result in a turnover and a stoppage of play (I have not included them all because not relevant to the topic):
* The thrower calls a team time-out when none remains while the disc is live or in play.
So, from this it would appear that a turnover results only when the:
A) the thrower calls it (only person in possession can actually call a timeout...nobody else on the field matters from this perspective), and,
B) disc is live or in play.
So, clarifying what live or in play mean...
II.R - State of the disc: The nature of play at a particular moment during the game. There are three states of the disc:
* A disc is in play when play may proceed without the defense's acknowledgment. An in-bounds disc on the playing field is in play. The disc is subject to a turnover. To put the disc into play at a particular spot on the field means to establish a pivot at that spot.
* A disc is live when players are allowed to move and the disc is subject to a turnover, but the thrower cannot make a legal pass (e.g., walking the disc to the spot where it is to be put into play). For a live disc to be put into play, the thrower must establish a pivot at the appropriate spot on the field, touch the disc to the ground, and put the disc into play.
* A disc is dead when play has stopped and can continue only with a check. The disc is not subject to a turnover.
Now there is also an entire section of the rules dedicated to Timeouts (VI), but again the only reference to turnovers for calling them is VI.B.6 - If the disc is live or in play and the thrower attempts to call a time-out when the team in possession has no time-outs remaining, it is a turnover and play stops.
Not much different there either.
So, I think lesson learned from this weekend is...if nobody knows the rules we should all check before enforcing. |
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Tournaments often have different rules for timeouts as the length of games is usually much shorter. In the case of our tournament the rule was stated on the first page which apparently not many people read. It stated that timeouts are not allowed in the last 5 minutes of the game. I suppose the reasoning for this is that in shortened games the score tends to be closer and so for teams to waste time in the last 5 minutes is unspirited. This exception for tournaments and also the fact that in indoor we do not allow timeouts in the last 5 minutes does tend to confuse people. I have already changed the instructions for next year so that the timeout rule is more visible.
Unfortunately my team also incurred a turnover because we called a timeout during the last 5 minutes of a game.
Perhaps we should discuss the timeout rules at the summer captains meeting. |
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Well I just happened to be standing there on Sunday when one of these calls (the call?) went down.
And I checked my handy-dandy rule book installed on my phone. And checked. And searched. But I could not find any basis that attempting to call a timeout during a stoppage of play should result in a turnover. And play had clearly stopped at that time.
So for me the pertinent part of the rules is the last definition in II.R:
"A disc is dead when play has stopped and can continue only with a check.The disc is not subject to a turnover." (emphasis added)
Just a second person's opinion. |
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In this case I believe the tournament rules are the same as league rules (in rules section of website). What I don't see in tournament or outdoor rules is a modification to the 11th Edition rules about turnovers if a time out is called while disc is not live or in play (ie after a point). That gap in the 11th edition and Duc rules would seem to mean to me that the team is informed they have no timeouts, and they would have their regular 90 seconds to setup on the line. No turnover.
Am I missing a specific Duc reference? |
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Just to reiterate. I don't believe DUC or 11th Edition rules result in turnover unless it is happening on the field while the disc is live or in play, and the call is made by the person with the disc.
Should that be the case, I would second Anthony's adaptation for DUC, being that it is likely a spirited adaptation that DUC should consider going forward for outdoor only (assuming each team does not instead receive a large clock to display). |
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The rules are definitely not crystal clear. (Are they ever in ultimate?) It does not state that it should be a turnover for sure although generally calling a timeout when you don't have one in a tournament is usually a turnover. I am guilty for believing the team that called it on us. They tried to show me on a phone but I could not read with the glare and just assumed they were right since they were showing me on the phone.
There is definitely a gap in the rules with respect to calling a timeout between points. I wonder if this is the first time ever that this has happened? Haha. When it is between points I bet teams just don't call the timeout and then just take extra time to have a discussion.
I like Anthony's suggestion as it seems more spirited.
We will discuss it at the captains meeting and come up with the perfect solution.
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Actually, it is covered in the rules and they are pretty clear. As Mike posted above, the disc is NOT subject to a turnover unless it is live or in play. In the case of our attempted time-out call, all that would have happened is that the time for us to signal readiness for the pull would not have been affected. (ie. We still would have only had 70 seconds, not that many adhere to this rule anyways.) Having said that, it was a part of the rules that I was either unfamiliar with or forgot in the moment. (It's not something that comes up very often.)
If I understand it correctly, the situation where it was called in the previous game, the disc was in play and the handler tried to call the time-out. (My apologies if I have incorrect information about the previous situation.) In this case, it is most definitely a turnover.
Bill |
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| You do understand Bill that is really your only job on Revolution...know the rules and tell everybody! At least now both teams know where to place the blame. |
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| Can I call a timeout if my post is within the last 5 of the thread? |
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| Minutes, yes.. Days? Nah-uh! |
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