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Hello,
If you ever need subs for your next game at WISC at 12:00, I am available.
Just let me know!
Thanks,
LP |
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LP,
I won't be able to attend my game on Sunday at 12 as I plan to be 100ft below the surface of the water of the Caribbean.
If you want to sub for me - I'm sure my team would appreciate it!
Cheers
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Lucky you!
It will be a pleasure to play on your team. Enjoy the water and have a drink for us!
LP |
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| FYI - Teams can play any players they want so long as those players do not play for another team in the league. So if LP is playing on another team he is not eligible to play in that game. Playing several games was ok in the last session as the standings did not really mean much and teams needed players. The standings actually count in this indoor division and so it would be unfair for players to play on several teams. I will be updating the rules to reflect this as soon as I can find out where I put them. But for now this forum post will do. Kevin |
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How does this rule deal with fairness? A sub that is already on another team is no different than a sub that is not in any other team.
Unless you are suggesting the sub would intentionally offer help to teams and end up throwing the game... to help his own team get ahead in the standings?????
just wondering... |
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Yeah, I totally disagree with this Kevin, and think you are not helping the league and the teams with this decision. Did you see our last game's score? Nothing against Derek's team, they're a new team that never played together, and are really nice. But 62-3 is not a Ultimate Frisbee score. All the good players of the league are already playing this season, so why not allow them to play with different teams when needed, and try to help the other teams? Dave and I played with the Scoobers last winter, and they enjoyed having us as we helped them develop some strategy and organize their game a little bit.
The league is struggling in having A teams in the summer. If you don't allow us to develop some players, the league will never get the status it should get.
For me, playing on different teams should be allowed.
I hate to say this Kevin, but I feel that this decision is coming from the player, not the league director.
Please note that I will respect the decision and not play on different teams.
Thanks,
LP |
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So is this sort of a paradigm shift for the league then or is it just for the sake of the Winter League? By that I am referring to how in the summer and fall leagues you can't sub in unless you are a rostered player for the team. But in this case clearly subs who are not registered in the winter league are allowed. Since I don't play in the winter indoor league I am cool with that (and Randy let me know if you need a sub in the future...or even in leiu of LP), but I was also wondering if this is a sign of a general rule change towards the use of subs.
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Thanks LP for the generous offer to fill in, it was much appreciated. We respect your decision to abide by the rule clarification, and will look elsewhere for a sub for this weekend.
Dave, I imagine Randy is winging his way south by now. If he does not post a response advising he has found a replacement, you're welcome to join us on Sunday.
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"But 62-3 is not a Ultimate Frisbee score."
It sure is not an ultimate score. A team playing with spirit may have at the 20-2 or 30-2 mark in the game suggest they get the win and redistribute the teams to make it even and a learning expeirence for the lesser skilled team. Or maybe play with their weaker hand. At least something to even the odds.
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So Lank, are you saying that our team didn't play with spirit? Can't say I'm not a little offended by that...
First, only one person on our team was keeping track of the score, so while we knew we were winning by a lot, we didn't really know by just how much until the game was over. When we found out the score (at the END of the game), many of us talked about it and we felt bad and decided that should it happen again, we would suggest mixing up the teams. The game is so fast paced that it wasn't something we had time to all discuss while we were playing.
Second, we treated their team like any other team, we took them seriously and played hard (this was the first time many of our players had played since the summer, so they were trying their best to shake off the cobwebs). We didn't switch throwing hands or start making all hammer throws etc. If I were on the losing team and the winning team started doing crap like that, I personally would be offended. The 3 points that Spirit of Spin did get, they EARNED, and I cheered each time they got one.
If the Spirit of Spin players felt our team didn't play with spirit, I sincerely apologize. Hopefully the next time we play them, we can take steps to make it a more enjoyable game for both teams... however, the format of this indoor season is that we make our own teams, so there will naturally be teams that are better than others. If we end up having to mix up the teams every time we play, then it defeats the purpose of choosing our own team. While our team isn't entirely the DUC Hunters team (we have 2 players who are not DUC Hunters), we are primarily playing together to use as a warm up for the upcoming summer season.
Finally, I agree with the majority who have posted so far... if you are going to allow subs, I don't see why people already playing on other teams can't be allowed, otherwise, you should stick with the rule that only those on the roster should be allowed to play. We only get to play ultimate for an hour a week right now... there are some people (like LP) who would love to play 3 or 4 days a week, but it's not available. Picking up on other teams is one way to get their ultimate "fix".
Thanks,
Alex
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| Disappointing. ***I definately played with spirit.*** I am offended. |
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I have been on both sides of winning AND losing because substituting players have had a tremendous impact on the outcome of the game. Due to this I can see there are valid arguments from both sides. Perhaps a captains' meeting (current indoor captains from the 8 teams now playing) and a vote would shed some light on how the majority of those playing this session feel.
Whatever the outcome is we should stick with the decision, but also keep in mind the goal of developing the league and the players in it.
Keep up the good work to everyone involved in the league.
Dan |
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| Dan McAllister wrote: | | I have been on both sides of winning AND losing because substituting players have had a tremendous impact on the outcome of the game. Due to this I can see there are valid arguments from both sides. |
The impact of a substitute is not in question here. Well, I guess it is because Kevin explained that it would affect the outcome of the standings. So how does a substitute that is not part of the league have no (or lesser) impact than a player that is part of the league?
In fact, after some thought. If anything, substitute players should be limited to those that are part of the league. They are paying a premium for these fields, and should have a higher priority on available field time.
Not saying I disagree with the rule, but I just want to see the reason behind it. Maybe this is a way for the league to attract new players to play indoor in the future? Maybe it is there to prevent a small number of players to consistently play 2+ games each week? Maybe something else I haven't thought of?
I guess I just need something that makes a bit more sense. |
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| Fat Dog wrote: | | If the Spirit of Spin players felt our team didn't play with spirit, I sincerely apologize. |
No apology necessary. We got to do what we came to do: play ultimate.
We had fun, and I hope Hawaiian Howards did too.
I'm glad to be able to participate. I don't want to be a burden on the more advanced teams, or have them 'play-down' to our level.
If it was un-spirited/un-fun, then I hope the captains would have resolved it on the field. |
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Hi all,
Dan, Kevin's new rule doesn't prevent subs from entering the game and influencing the outcome, it simply prevents players from other indoor teams from being subs, so you could still end up winning or losing a game because of a "super" sub, just not one that is already on another team. The only way around this is to only allow players on the roster to play, however, we all know that in indoor, at least 8 guys and 4 girls are required just to last the entire hour, as the game is incredibly fast paced, so there will be times that subs are needed when players on your roster can't make it to the game (like Randy who is on vacation?)
Dave, Marc and LP are probably 3 of the more famous "super" subs. They are all "A" level players and they all play for Hawaiian Howard. Yes, they do have a big impact when they pick up on other teams, and they all love the game so much they try to play as much as possible. When the new rule came out, it was first posted by Kevin in this thread, where LP was offering to pick up for another team, which made it feel like the new rule was aimed at LP and the other "super" subs.
Bill, I totally agree with you, especially about giving preference for subs who are actually paying to play already. Kevin, maybe if you gave more explanation as to how you came to your decision about the new rule then maybe this would not be such a heated topic. Bill's comment makes sense, but if you have other valid reasons for your decision, then if you explain it to us, maybe we can all move on.
Derek, I really do hope your team was ok with playing us. Your team doesn't play us until the end of the season now, so you have time to prepare! I look forward to playing you again!
Thanks all,
Alex |
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Sorry it took me so long to reply. The rule is in fact in line with what we do in the summer league and if anything it is on the simpler side of the summer rule. In the summer, players cannot play on two teams in the same division and that has always been the rule. Of course it is hard to do in the summer since all teams in a division play at the same time, so unless you have super powers it is impossible to be in two places at once. Which is why this problem has never come up. Also, starting this summer you are not allowed to play any players who are not on your roster(online) at least 24 hours prior to the game. I did not implement this part of the rule as the indoor league is relatively new and I wanted teams to be able to get enough players more easily. Perhaps I should implement this rule as well.
Since this league will have a trophy, it is important that when you are playing a team you are playing the actual team and not half the team plus half another team. If a bunch of players were to play on one team and cause that team to win over another team that is competing for the trophy that would obviously be unfair. Would you ever see teams in any other professional league playing on two teams, I don't think so. It is just common sense. I would love to play on two teams as well but it just isn't possible in a league where there is a trophy up for grabs. In the fall league and the first indoor league the rules were relaxed a little bit because there were no trophies. In these leagues teams were able to get help from more experienced players with no problems.
It seems that from everyone's comments that they want the rules to be more strict or at least consistent. So to do this we would have to make the summer rules the main rules. Which I think would hurt the fall and first indoor leagues where teams sometimes pick up more experienced players. Anyways, we can vote on this at the next captain's meeting.
My suggestion to those players that want to help out is to go and coach the inexperienced teams from the sidelines. This would actually be more of a benefit then when you play and have no time to pass on your wisdom. The other thing that could happen is that if a team wants to default the win then they can play anyone they want, so long as they are members of the league. If teams are just out there to practice and learn the game then defaulting shouldn't be a concern to them. Also, if you are playing a much weaker team you could also slow the game down and teach the other team some defense or offence. Or let your weaker players play more of the game and take your strongest players out. I know it is tough for both teams when there is a wide skill difference during a game, but there is no clear cut solution. The goal would be to make sure that noone is embarrassed by the score or by the way the winning team is playing. For example, as mentioned by someone earlier it would not be nice to start playing with your wrong hands or throwing only hammers. A team would rather lose badly on the score board then to be made fun of.
Well, I'm not sure that I answered everyone's questions as there were a lot, but I hope I have clarified the rule a little. Bottom line is that the rule is consistent with the summer rules. If captain's also want to implement the rule where the players must be on the roster prior to playing then we can do this just let me know. |
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| LP wrote: | The league is struggling in having A teams in the summer. If you don't allow us to develop some players, the league will never get the status it should get.
For me, playing on different teams should be allowed.
I hate to say this Kevin, but I feel that this decision is coming from the player, not the league director.
Please note that I will respect the decision and not play on different teams.
Thanks,
LP |
LP, I hope my answer in the previous post has answered your questions. I don't really see why you say I am making the decision as a player instead of a league director, perhaps you could explain. Those kind of comments can be damaging to my reputation as a league administrator.
Also, to set the record straight, I love it when you and other skilled players help out with the inexperienced teams, it does help the league a lot. But, if you really feel strongly about this then you should not have signed up with the Howards but instead joined one of the weaker teams. Considering that the DUC Hunters cruised to a undefeated season, suggests to me that they do not need to have a 13 week preseason warm up. Especially, when they practice during the spring and summer as well. Even without you on the Howards they are probably still favourites to win the indoor league. Your skills on another team would be much more of a benefit then they will be on the Howards. I understand your disappointment in not being able to play on several teams, and I totally see where you are coming from. I love playing on multiple teams as well. But for this season you will have to have just the one game. |
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| Bill Wong wrote: |
The impact of a substitute is not in question here. Well, I guess it is because Kevin explained that it would affect the outcome of the standings. So how does a substitute that is not part of the league have no (or lesser) impact than a player that is part of the league?
In fact, after some thought. If anything, substitute players should be limited to those that are part of the league. They are paying a premium for these fields, and should have a higher priority on available field time.
Not saying I disagree with the rule, but I just want to see the reason behind it. Maybe this is a way for the league to attract new players to play indoor in the future? Maybe it is there to prevent a small number of players to consistently play 2+ games each week? Maybe something else I haven't thought of?
I guess I just need something that makes a bit more sense. |
Bill, it is a question of the substitute having an impact. If a few players from my team were to play on your team and beat the Hawiaan Howards then they could possibly lose the opportunity to lose the indoor title. Would this be fair? I hope you see that it wouldn't. Having said that, playing players that would not have an impact and yet play on other teams in the indoor division is not allowed either. If we did this then we would have to have some sort of system to determine who is an impact player and who is not. So it is better to just have a rule where no player in the division can play on a second team.
Also, substitute players are limited to league players. The second stipulation states that all substitute players must be league members.
New players are welcome to join any team that wants them so long as they become a member first. |
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Kevin,
I don't think you are understanding what I am trying to say.
Your main goal is to prevent substitutes having an impact on the league standings. That rule does not do anything except make things more difficult for teams that genuinely need subs to field a competitive/enjoyable game.
Let's go back to your example. If a few players from your team subbed for my team and beat Hawiaan Howards, that would be unfair, agreed.
What happens in an alternate reality where those players never signed up on your team (or in the league)? They'd be eligible to sub for my team and win against Hawiaan Howards. I think that would be unfair too, do you agree?
So what is the purpose of this rule?
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| No I don't agree. When a team pays a team fee they can play any players they want so long as they are not on any other team in the division and have purchased a membership fee. They could sign all the players from the Canadian national team if they wanted. This is in no way unfair. That's the advantage of paying the team fee. If teams, such as yours, are in need of extra players just advertise on the forum for people who are not playing in the indoor division already and I am sure that you will find some. They may not be the calibre of the super subs but they will give you a rest. |
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Wow - pass me another drink :-). I go away for a week and all the excitement breaks out.
I will probably chime in with my 2 cents when I in front of my computer and don't have to fight with my blackberry.
Cheers (but I wish I was still on the beach) |
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Now for my 2 cents on the subject.
I think both sides have some very good points to this argument - so I will address the main points as I see them. It sounds like this topic will be discussed at the next captain's meeting - which I think will be a very good discussion. I will also make the point that these are my opinions and not those of the team I am on.
1. Having subs can impact the outcome of the game. This is true. Quite often subs mean the difference between a good game and a not-very-good game. A good example of this is the game today between Bob's team and Huck U. We have 2 guy subs and 1 girl sub...and although the game was fun, it wasn't much of a game because after the first 10 minutes we knew the outcome and it became a skills drill for Bob's team :-) As I mentioned – it was a fun game and a really good work out – but a couple subs would have really helped make it a more challenging game for Bob’s team. I will admit – we didn’t look too hard for subs as we knew we would be light on girls – but we had a lot of guys just not show up.
2. Teams would stack their teams with super subs and the super subs would cost someone the trophy. I don't think anyone intentionally picks subs to stack their team or to prevent a team from winning the trophy – because until just recently – nobody knew there would be a trophy for this session. Also, that would be directly against the spirit of the game. Although a trophy is a nice thing for the top team in the league, I don’t think it is fair to compare our indoor league directly with the summer league. In the summer league, teams can slot themselves into their skill level (ABCD divisions) and battle teams of similar skill levels. That definitely isn’t the case for this session of indoor or for indoor in general. Let me explain.
There is always a complaint that there aren’t enough teams in A division in summer league. I think one of the main reasons there aren’t more teams in A is that the teams that are in A have played together for so long – most lower level teams don’t want to step up and get beat every single week. Now personally, I certainly like to win, but at the end of the day – I like the game and enjoy the exercise. I don’t care about the score but hands down I prefer a competitive game to a blowout. I would hazard a guess that there a lot of people who feel that winning is the most important part of the game though. Now in indoor where people submit teams there are always going to some super teams because those players like to play with each other – and who can blame them. Because so many top players play on the same couple of teams, it also means there are some weaker teams in the indoor league who will never be a threat for the trophy. We handle this in summer league by having divisions – and I think that is the main reason we can’t compare summer league “only plan on one team in the division” to indoor’s “only play on one team in the league” – in summer – you can choose your division.
My last point about this indoor season is in the way teams were created. Let me first state that this is no fault of the way Kevin has organized our indoor season – I think he has done a wonderful job. Because of the low turnout in the first indoor season, we lost a lot of our field time. Kevin warned us about this but we still only had 4 teams last session. When this session was announced there were already 4 teams signed up (for the 4 time slots) and everyone else had to scramble to pull together teams to show enough interest to have Kevin find additional field time for us. In my opinion, I think this is going to lead to a much wider gap between the teams at the top and the teams at the bottom of the league compared to last year. To defend LP and why he signed up with Mike’s team – well when it was announced 4 teams would be in the leagues I can’t fault him or anyone else from DUC Hunters from signing up to make sure they had field time.
3. You can get outside subs (either outside our league if they pay to join or subs from DUC not playing indoor). The main point here is that most players who want to play from DUC are already signed up for this session – otherwise we would have had 10 teams this session. I know there will be a few people who want to play the odd game – or missed signing up with a time but I am not sure if there will be enough subs for everyone who needs them. Most of the people who are willing to sub – surprise – are those already playing. I know I subbed a couple times in last year’s indoor – but nobody would every accuse me of being a super sub – most likely a big pylon :-)
I think one solution, and maybe I’ll try this starting next week, is be to create a “sub” message on the board. That way people can post if they are willing to sub or are in need of subs and maybe we can stir up enough DUC subs to fill the spots.
The final point about outside subs – and this supports Bill’s point – I don’t see the difference between inside and outside subs. The only thing stopping a team from stacking their team with the super subs that are left in DUC or other leagues is integrity and belief in spirit of the game. This is that exactly the reason why I think a sub from within the league is not a bad thing.
I know this has been long winded – nobody ever accused me of being brief – but I just wanted to add my opinions since I was one of the people responsible for this issue. I will abide by whatever Kevin decides, but as mentioned at the beginning of my post – I think this will be a very good discussion at the next captain’s meeting.
Cheers! (and I still wish I was on a beach)
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| There are lots of players that would want to play indoor that are currently not playing indoor. Any team in need should just advertise on the forum, saying that they have a free spot for anyone who wants to join. I can also send out an email to the league members asking everyone if that is what you want. Just tell me how many people you need. |
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